Curse

Why? · Jan 04, 2012, 02:36 PM // 14:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

I can do Eternal Grove and Dzagonur Bastion HM no problems with 7 heroes, and I don't use cons or 2 Nec / 2 Mes / 2 Rit.

There are a few tough areas out there with 7H (DoA HM, UW HM), but I find most of the game is too easy.

@above - that's 18 armour + 20 from Cracked Armour or almost 40. -40 armour doubles your unboosted damage. Are you really claiming that's not significant?

Good for you, how many hours a day do you play? Like I said there are people that can do anything in the game, but generally they are the ones on the wiki who have an average of 8 hours or more a day playing.

That isn't normal, and that is not who the game should be balanced for. If you do anything for a long time every single day you should get good at it. You should also realize 99% of the world will not spend that much time at a video game.

And you should be helpful to the rest of the community and post builds, screenshots, and walkthroughs so everyone can do it without having to find another person.

Surgo · Jan 04, 2012, 02:47 PM // 14:47

Jeydra does post builds, screenshots, and walkthroughs. He has been incredibly helpful to those of us new to using heroes.

You are also begging the question, hardcore. Stop doing that.

Legendary Elementalist · Jan 04, 2012, 02:54 PM // 14:54

@Jeydra
in 99% of areas destroying balled group in few seconds isn't a problem, but:
- after killing a group it's a bad thing to have cooldown
- balling with heroes playing as ele isn't always easy and fast

If you want to play smoothly then you want nearby nukes, and if those aren't dots, then searing flames/rodgort spam is something that many players would love to see viable in hm, like it was in pre-hm 2007 (i mean sf with that year).

Again, weaken armor is only adjanced. In many cases it isn't enough.
Yes, the game is pretty easy on hm. Yes, I've done almost everything in gw. Yes, my teambuild pwns everything, but eles aren't main damage dealers there, nor am I.
But just many of us want that good old ele back, without having to wait for a cooldown of cc, with being able to just nuke everything down with searing flames or whatever on hm. And all you need for melee is just splinter + SoH (and this one isn't necessary). And melees (including sins) are very hard to disable in PvE these days, with 7 heroes. Tbh, all you need is bugged asuran scan (you can't miss and mobs can't block you) and sometimes IAU if there are heavy knock downs. Sins are no longer vulnerable to shutdown on HM.

DiogoSilva · Jan 04, 2012, 03:23 PM // 15:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

@above - Elementalists are actually the best healers in the game. If you're thinking of "support" as stuff like Unsteady Ground and Blinding Flash, then by far the bigger issue is that it's better to overload damage over these skills. After all, why use Blinding Flash if you don't need it to stay alive?

Elementalists are the best "healers" in the game by being monks, not by being elementalists. They are not controling the elements to make epic or tactical party support effects, as expected from their flavor. They are spamming monk protection skills with a cheap infinite energy elite skill. It's not like GW2 where water eles can heal the party while still acting like elementalists. And although the water line is getting closer to its GW2 counterpart in the upcoming update, and probably will get even more with the second update, for now elementalist healers are disguised monks and nothing else.

Elementalist support skills either rely on a "epic" mixture of damage, support and AoE range, but then they get shafted by long cooldowns and the damage gets nerfed by HM; or they rely on focused, single target disabling skills (Blinding Flash) that are key in the PvP format but irrelevant in how current PvE works (where it's all about mass aoe destruction, mass aoe disruption and a army of minions and spirits).

In this regard, the support skills in the update are going in the right direction. The massive damage plus the combination of blind/ cracked armor/ weakness that the new Shockwave + the lesser HM armor provides is far more worthwhile in PvE than a single target disabling skill, and the high risk of death makes it more exciting as well. The decrease in recharge time of Unsteady Ground (plus the extra damage) is a neafty bonus to an already decent support skill. And so on.

HigherMinion · Jan 04, 2012, 03:33 PM // 15:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by DiogoSilva

Elementalists are the best "healers" in the game by being monks, not by being elementalists.

RITUALISTS
MONKS
DERVS
PARAGON
ELEMENTALIST

Sorry, I was just naming the professions that can heal your party. Monk is in there, right, but "monking" seems to just be the verb of not letting your party be dead. Eles abuse their primary attribute for energy management, and that's fine. It's what they do best. Same goes for necromancers with SR (not much so since SR nerf). Also note: new Mist Form heals too.

Skyy High · Jan 04, 2012, 04:17 PM // 16:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

In a sense I can understand the frustration of Eles wanting to have the same effectiveness in HM as the rits. But different professions fill different roles too. For example, warriors use weapons that are affected by target armor, yet they are one of the most effective characters in GW in terms of tanking, SY, damage, and buffs.

Warrior damage also largely ignores armor. Only base weapon damage is reduced; all bonus damage and buff damage from stuff like Strength of Honor is armor-ignoring.

Quote:

Similarly eles shouldn't be just about damage because every classes in GW have to be able to dish out their own damage and ANet has to balance out those damage numbers to keep the classes balanced. Eles have to find their own roles or niche then they can really be the best at something useful for the team and yet not be overpowered relative to the other classes.

Eh, eles have found different roles. They're reasonably good PvE skill users, they're the best single-target healers/protectors in the game thanks to Ether Renewal, and they're very good options for the times when snares or party protection are required and other options are available for whatever reason. Pretty much the only thing they can't do well in HM is *drumroll* damage. That's what's getting fixed, ideally, in this update.

DiogoSilva · Jan 04, 2012, 04:29 PM // 16:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skyy High

Pretty much the only thing they can't do well in HM is *drumroll* damage. That's what's getting fixed, ideally, in this update.

Not only that; as shown by your own post, there's also something else they can't do very well: use their own skills (and the exceptions are not the rule). Which is ALSO getting fixed with the ele update, at least for the elites.

I did not create an elementalist to have him use assassin elites, or to cast protection magic on my allies.

Reformed · Jan 04, 2012, 04:31 PM // 16:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Legendary Elementalist

And melees (including sins) are very hard to disable in PvE these days, with 7 heroes...Sins are no longer vulnerable to shutdown on HM.

How wrong you are...all that spam comes at a heavy price. You're working with an energy pool in the high 20s-low 30s of which half is constantly being thrown back into a chain. Any screw ups or net deficits due to e-denial and kiss your DPS goodbye. Scan came along and negated one of the more pesky shutdowns, I'll grant you that, but you still need to have the energy available to actually use it.

DiogoSilva · Jan 04, 2012, 04:34 PM // 16:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reformed

How wrong you are...all that spam comes at a heavy price. You're working with an energy pool in the high 20s-low 30s of which half is constantly being thrown back into a chain. Any screw ups or net deficits due to e-denial and kiss your DPS goodbye. Scan came along and negated one of the more pesky shutdowns, I'll grant you that, but you still need to have the energy available to actually use it.

I don't play with an assassin, but can't zealous weapons deal with the problem?

Legendary Elementalist · Jan 04, 2012, 04:53 PM // 16:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reformed

How wrong you are...all that spam comes at a heavy price. You're working with an energy pool in the high 20s-low 30s of which half is constantly being thrown back into a chain. Any screw ups or net deficits due to e-denial and kiss your DPS goodbye. Scan came along and negated one of the more pesky shutdowns, I'll grant you that, but you still need to have the energy available to actually use it.

Zealous daggers, double hits, critical eye and Lotus Strike say hello. Also, if there is really heavy e-denial just auto attack for few seconds and with SoH + Splinter you will do good dmg anyway. Btw, i have no problems with energy denial even on ranger without critical strikes (zealous + lotus strike is enough for most e-denial, well and the sin with the ability of fulling from 0 to 30 ene in 3 seconds can do well in 98% cases). The same goes with WE warrior, yea sure there are 4-5 or so areas when they will pwn you, but casters and especially eles do have troubles with heavy energy stealing as well (well, 4 esurges at once will disable anything but adrenal warrior, but soh + splinter dagger spammer can often outdamage ele on hm with just auto attack...). With no to normal energy denial any semi-decent ranger/warrior/sin that spams dagger chains should never notice energy problems, the exception goes to paragon and other crazy dagger spammers, but not to the holy trynity of dagger spamming.

Daesu · Jan 04, 2012, 04:59 PM // 16:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skyy High

Eh, eles have found different roles. They're reasonably good PvE skill users, they're the best single-target healers/protectors in the game thanks to Ether Renewal, and they're very good options for the times when snares or party protection are required and other options are available for whatever reason. Pretty much the only thing they can't do well in HM is *drumroll* damage. That's what's getting fixed, ideally, in this update.

That is fine but eles shouldn't need to defer to monk skills to protect and as Diogo said, this would be fixed with the ele update. Or the ele can be a snare specialist, which is also a form of protection for the team.

Anyway, my point is Eles shouldn't just be considered damage nukers that out-damages everyone as that would put them in an overpowered position to be nerfed. With the current pve meta of using minions, spirits, protective spirit, shelter, cons, it would make pve too easy if eles only need to stay in the backline and aoe nuke everything and people would say that with the ele update, pve has become even easier thus worse than before.

Adjust the ele damage accordingly so it is comparable with the other professions but not make them overpowered since, unlike other professions, many of the ele skills are aoe. Eles need to fill a more specific role be it protection, snares, or something else.

Reformed · Jan 04, 2012, 05:07 PM // 17:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by DiogoSilva

I don't play with an assassin, but can't zealous weapons deal with the problem?

You have to critical to make net returns on the chain which is especially important on Death Blossom (x2 hits). Autoattacks aren't going to deliver the punch you want and places like City HM flat out stop the build in it's tracks. If for some reason you are scanning everything, as in Gloom HM or some periods in Slavers Exile, then the extra DB hit is also consumed leaving very little left to play with for support skills.

@Legendary: You aren't gaining 30e in 3 seconds, just stop the silly hyperbole. Ele's will turn out fine and melee can still be shut down in HM in spite of scan.

Skyy High · Jan 04, 2012, 07:18 PM // 19:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by DiogoSilva

Not only that; as shown by your own post, there's also something else they can't do very well: use their own skills (and the exceptions are not the rule). Which is ALSO getting fixed with the ele update, at least for the elites.

I did not create an elementalist to have him use assassin elites, or to cast protection magic on my allies.

Well, that's largely the result of two things. First, most ele elites have been, up to this point, big damage skills. There are a few notable exceptions, but as Jeydra noted before, it's really pretty pointless to waste time blinding or dazing a group when you would generally be better served by outright killing it in a few seconds. Retooling elites to do supportive tasks that matter in PvE (instant big shutdown / cracked armor application, knockdowns, easy speed boosts, etc) means that eles can do that sort of stuff if they want and be more effective. They probably still won't, but that's where the armor rebalance comes in: it'll let eles use their own skills effectively, instead of relying on other professions'.

Aaaaand then there's the second big problem, which is that PvE skills can outdamage pretty much anything (single-target, at least) that any profession can muster. There's no way they should buff profession-specific skills to compete universally with PvE skills, so the only real option is to nerf the PvE skills to be useful for supportive functions only (a ranged KD at instant speed is just fine on its own, it doesn't need to do 80 armor-ignoring damage too).

The first problem is, hopefully, getting fixed in this update. The second problem is affecting all professions, not just the ele, and I hope that it gets looked at somewhere along the line, but I doubt that it will because they don't want to scare off their audience before GW2 comes out.

Daesu · Jan 05, 2012, 12:17 AM // 00:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skyy High

Well, that's largely the result of two things. First, most ele elites have been, up to this point, big damage skills. There are a few notable exceptions, but as Jeydra noted before, it's really pretty pointless to waste time blinding or dazing a group when you would generally be better served by outright killing it in a few seconds.

That's the mesmers vs eles debate in the past when the mesmer was a weaker class. The ele players laughed at the mesmer players and said, in this forum, what is the point of interrupting and denial when you would generally be better served by outright killing it in a few seconds (i.e. eles were overpowered at that time). The best denial is, of course, death!

It ends up that if you can easily kill a target then interrupting it becomes POINTLESS! And eles would become way overpowered and needs to be nerfed, again! With today's meta of using spirits, minions, PS, shelter, cons, the ele can easily stay in the backline and aoe nuke everything. I doubt a dumber ele that doesn't need any skills to mow down everything is what we need to improve PvE right now.

Quote:

Retooling elites to do supportive tasks that matter in PvE (instant big shutdown / cracked armor application, knockdowns, easy speed boosts, etc) means that eles can do that sort of stuff if they want and be more effective. They probably still won't, but that's where the armor rebalance comes in: it'll let eles use their own skills effectively, instead of relying on other professions'.

On the contrary, eles should have more interesting gameplay roles than just nuke everything with high AoE damage. Be it healing or protection or snares, mesmers are the interrupts/denial specialists, so eles can be the protection/snares specialists. Everyone wants to be a specialist of outright damage nowadays and be grossly overpowered, given today's PvE meta of spirits and minions. We dont need to make PvE dumber than what it already is.

Why? · Jan 05, 2012, 01:37 AM // 01:37

pve skills are not op. Sorry but doing 80 damage every so often isn't worth bringing. the knockdown is worthless in pve. when you can have a mesmer w/ esurge shred groups i don't think 80 every so often is a big deal. Oh and then spirit spammers, minion bombers, etc, etc, etc. the only pve skill that i really like is summon spirits.

the rest are cute but i think there are plenty of better options.

Swingline · Jan 05, 2012, 04:23 AM // 04:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by HigherMinion

RITUALISTS
MONKS
DERVS
PARAGON
ELEMENTALIST

Sorry, I was just naming the professions that can heal your party. Monk is in there, right, but "monking" seems to just be the verb of not letting your party be dead. Eles abuse their primary attribute for energy management, and that's fine. It's what they do best. Same goes for necromancers with SR (not much so since SR nerf). Also note: new Mist Form heals too.

Its more like Eles abuse a certain skill in their primary attribute(Ether Renewal). It is a problem that one Ele can keep an entire party alive better than two monks. A necro's SR is where all their energy comes from and its capped at 3 times every 15 seconds. Ether Renewal allows infinite spamming of high energy prots and infuse health with an endless pool of energy.

StormDragonZ · Jan 05, 2012, 04:30 AM // 04:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by spun ducky

Hard Mode - Reduce armor level for Hard Mode enemies by 3 and raise maximum health by 20 for each level above 20.

If this is truly the case, am I reading it correctly when I say:

Take the Kappa in The Undercity. In HM, they're Level 26. Does that mean they lose 18 armor and gain 120 health?

Likewise, take the Shiro'ken Assassin in Raisu Palace. In HM, they're Level 30. Does that mean they lose 30 armor and gain 200 health?

Swingline · Jan 05, 2012, 05:12 AM // 05:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by StormDragonZ

If this is truly the case, am I reading it correctly when I say:

Take the Kappa in The Undercity. In HM, they're Level 26. Does that mean they lose 18 armor and gain 120 health?

Likewise, take the Shiro'ken Assassin in Raisu Palace. In HM, they're Level 30. Does that mean they lose 30 armor and gain 200 health?

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Creature

The 3 armor less per level would bring mobs down to NM armor. Warriors and Paragons get an armor bonus of 20 while Sins, Dervs and Rangers get 10. Warriors also get their +20 physical armor and Ranger their +30 vs elemental. So -3 armor per level does make sense, but the health does not because there's no way to tell what the hp increase is.

I am hoping the hp increase is 25-30 per level tbh.

Instead of the equation given on the wiki it will be this

3*20 + armor bonus = base armor

Kunder · Jan 05, 2012, 06:04 AM // 06:04

What does this do to the AR 140 monstrosities that lurk in random areas? Taking 18 off of that for Jade Armor's really doesnt fix much...

Realistically I don't think this is going to weaken current team builds much. Even the most armor-ignoring focused builds still have a good amount of armor-respecting damage. The break even point appears to be around 40%, if more than that of your damage is armor-respecting then you pull ahead. Top tier builds that are run now hover around 20-50%, even the builds hurt worst by this are only down a mere ~10%.

Whether this works with before or after Cracked Armor will be interesting to see.

HigherMinion · Jan 05, 2012, 06:34 AM // 06:34

This whole update could have been changed to
"Cracked armour now negates 40 AL instead of 20" meh.